[jaylittle]

Linux rocks. However the Linux kernel suffers from a number of design issues that have and will continue to plague it. Namely the fact that the LK team has never gone out of their way to create a stable Driver ABI with which binary drivers can be developed against. Yeah you can develop binary drivers against the Linux Kernel now however you will always have to have an open source component to serve as the glue between the two as a binary module compiled for an older version of kernel isn't guaranteed to work against a newer version. Typically this means that the part of your driver that actually interfaces with the kernel needs to be recompiled for every single new kernel that is put out there. So you can either release a new version of the binary for every version of the kernel or provide an open source component that end users can recompile on their own while provide a few canned binary packages for standard distributions that are out there.

A lot of the conflict over this issue has to do with the spirit of OSS in general as well as the preception that creating a binary module for a GPL product may or may not be considered derivative work. There is a lot of bickering still going on about this topic on the LKML even as Linus himself has decided to leave this functionality in the grey area and pay it no real attention (which does more harm than good in my opinion).

[Jerry Atrik]

i agree, the linux community needs a leader to send them down the right path. i just recently decided to "linux" and have been playing with the fedora 3 core and the debian stable. out of the box the fedora doesnt mount my scsi drives and debian wont start x-server.
neither of these are a show stopper but with microsoft i put in a custom install cd that takes me 10 min to make, walk away and in an hour the system is up customized and fully ready to run.
i like the internet speed of linux and the way the fedora kernel deals with the xeons but it's kind of a pain.

i would gladly pay for a commercial linux system if there was more software and a more uniform way of installing.

nuthin wrong with a little competition 'eh microsoft.

p.s. i like the way kde makes my system look like the old SGI unix

[jaylittle]

I recently compiled the KDE 3.4 RC1 on my Gentoo Linux laptop. It didn't take me long to get tired of it. While it is more "Windows like" in its interface the constant barrage of pointless names that begin with the letter K is enough drive somebody insane. For now I will remain a happy user of XFCE 4.2.

[Jerry Atrik]

with what limited experience i have... kde seems to have 3 different looks. old classic, some midrange look and the new look (3.4). with xp u need window blinds or other "pay" software to customize the desktop easily. with linux there are dozens of free progs out there for complete customization not the least of which is the standard kde or gnome desktop development (which i have yet to play with much).

i will have to try the gentoo and mandrake installs. last night i did the debian "stable",debian "testing" and the fedora core 3 again. this time i mounted the images from my ntfs scsi drives for top speed and to see if there was any problems mounting a ntfs drive. here again we have such different contrasts in standard loading it would keep a lot of windows users from switching.
ie

debian "stable" (with all the updates) installs lilo. mounts my ntfs by default and dual boots (to xp) out of the box.the kernel uses the xeons but it wont detect my geforce4 card or my sony monitor (common they are industry standards)and x-server wont start.

debian "testing" (kernel 2.4 and 2.6) installs grub which refuses to dual boot out of the box. detects my video equipment as standard vga and crappy monitor and wont install the nvidia drivers. (kernel compile interface error) and installs such a crappy kernel that it will only recognize and use 1 xeon

fedora core 3 so far is the best of the out of the box installs. it installs grub which doesnt dual boot ootb but detects my video, scsi and allows me to choose my monitor although the settings arent right. it also detects and installs by default a smp kernel that deals with the hyperthreading pretty well. its also the easiest to get around in for a linux nu-b (although i would rather use kpackage from debian)
anyway... now that i got so far off the topic that phillip will prolly ban me...lol

i love internet/networking on linux, fast and easy. on my 4mb line with xp i get roughly 500Kbps with some bursts to 800 for a few seconds. with linux i routinly see sustained d/ls at 1000 or 1100 d/l and entire 600 meg cd image in 12 min! woo hoo
the little wireless network (linux to xp) is seemless and transfers at hard drive speed.
step up microsoft

[theefool]

I have about 3 years experience with Solaris and HPux. So, here is a n00b question. Are the many flavors of Linux pretty much the same as Solaris or HPux?

About the only thing I've done with linux, per se, was install VMware and setup Mandrake just to see what irc chatting was like on a unix core. I also on occasion use Knoppix on Dead NT boxes....though, recently I've been playing with ERD Commander.

[Jerry Atrik]

oh yea i have to add suse to the list of things i need to grab and try to box install.
and another thing i noticed about linux is the help sites are fragmented. (3 cheers for linuxcompatible.org)nothing is really too comon between the distros.
radhat/fedora seem to be the most mainstream. fedora incorps an "up2date" module that i didnt see in the other distros which will let u know when a updated package comes along. not sure how current it is but....

[jaylittle]

Increasingly various Linux distros are beginning to experience the very same pheonemea that ended up hurting your traditional *nix operating systems: Fragmentation.

Today Linux distributions are typically generally classified based on the following attributes:

1) What kind of machine they are meant to install on whether it be your home computer, a server, an embedded device or a combination of some or all of these.

2) What package distribution and installation system they use. The main ones are APT (used by Debian, Knoppix, Ubuntu), RPM (used by Fedora, SuSE, Mandrake) and Portage (Gentoo) which is an evolved version of the *BSD ports system. Each package distribution system has their own strengths and weaknesses and none them of them can fully compare to the Windows Installer functionality Microsoft has distributed with Windows.

Sounds easy, right? Well it's not. Even though Debian and Ubuntu might both use the binary distribution system known as APT, an APT package designed for Ubuntu isn't necessacarily going to function or install correctly on Debian. This is even more true for the source/binary RPM distribution system. It's not an issue so much with something like Portage where you essentially compile all of your own software (in a somewhat automated fashion that automatically resolves dependencies) but that clearly has disadvantages of its own (i.e. waiting for your apps to compile).

Right now Linux is at a crossroads. Given Microsoft's inability to bring Longhorn to market in a quick fashion - they have left their competitors with an opening. The question is whether or not the Linux community will be able to take advantage of this opening and net themselves some marketshare in the process. Right now the answer appears to be no. Progress is being made yes but it is slow especially on fronts where Linux is still playing catchup to Windows.

As a server OS, Linux is great. It requires much more initial knowledge to understand and configure than Windows 2k/2k3 but Linux installations can run unhindered for very long periods of time (yes a proper Windows installation can do this as well but most people using Windows aren't even close to competent enough to configure a stable box).

When learning Linux - the best approach is to learn Linux itself and not the distribution surrounding it. As things stand now using the GUI tool available in Redhat or Debian to configure some aspect of the system may not be applicable when you attempt to set the same thing up on a Suse or Gentoo system. It is important to recognize that distributions of Linux are looking to do anything they can to make themselves stand out amongst their competitors and this results in a situation involving a number of front-ends and layers that would otherwise not be there.

Just some thoughts. If anybody has any questions about Linux feel free to ask them and I will attempt to answer them.

[Jerry Atrik]

well said
i know a lot about windows and some unix from way back so i just know enough to really crash a unix box good, but there is no way i would sugget any linux system to my anti-geek neighbor. i must say that fedora is very close to being that way.
as for me im wrestling with mounting other partitions and hard drives (i always get a cant find in fstab error) so i guess i need to add that as a kernel command? i know the system recognizes the scsi drives because thats where i put the boot iso's

and dual booting to xp in grub. lilo worked fine with hd1,0 chainload +1 (or sunthin like that) but the same command doesnt work with grub. maybe i need the "noverify"?

[Philipp]

Originally posted by jerry atrik:

Quote:

i know a lot about windows and some unix from way back so i just know enough to really crash a unix box good, but there is no way i would sugget any linux system to my anti-geek neighbor. i must say that fedora is very close to being that way.

MEPIS is a nice distro for beginners

Originally posted by jerry atrik:

Quote:

lilo worked fine with hd1,0 chainload +1 (or sunthin like that) but the same command doesnt work with grub. maybe i need the "noverify"?

This should work:

Code:

title Windows XP
        rootnoverify (hd1,0)
        chainloader +1

[jaylittle]

If you are getting fstab related errors when trying to mount a partition then the error involves a file called fstab in the /etc directory. Typically when you mount a partition or device you need to provide at least two pieces of information:

mount devicename mountpoint

Okay now if you are getting a "can't find .... in /etc/fstab" type of error then you have two choices:

1) Provide the additional piece of information. Instead of typing "mount /dev/hda1" (first partition of the first ide harddisk on the primary controller) try "mount /dev/hda /mnt/myharddrive" (the second part refers to an empty directory called myharddrive in the /mnt directory that you will access the contents of that partition through. On the flip side if you are typing "mount /mnt/myharddrive" then you'll need to specify the device that you want to mount by adding it before the mountpoint: "mount /dev/hda1 /mnt/myharddrive".

2) Modify your /etc/fstab file file so that it contains an entry for your filesystem allowing you to either A) mount it automatically at startup or B) mount it from the commandline with less information. Each line of the file that doesn't begin with "#" corresponds to a filesystem that is or can be mounted. Some filesystems like "/proc" or "/dev" are special and should not be messed with unless you know what you are doing. The file format is documented within the file however you will want to add another line to the file containing information about your filesystem.

Hope this helps.

[Jerry Atrik]

philipp:
thank u... worked like a charm (rootnoverify)

mepis=linux with training wheels, woo hoo! d/ling it now. it kinda reminds me of the knoppix cd that a friend gave me to play with. that startd me down this whole linux road... remind me to slap him please.

jaylittle:
excellent info. thats the first thing im gonna try when i get back there (into the linux os)

[Jerry Atrik]

my hd is tired from installing distros this weekend. my list
fedora 2 and 3
debian woody and sarge
mepis
knoppix
mandrake 10 and 10.1

laylittle is right... forget about the "packaging" method. the best way is to get the source and compile them yourself.
i blew up fedora by updating xfree86. i figured out that the best way to install is just to install the base system with no graphical interface, compile and install xfree, video drivers and then the desktop (is this wrong?) lots of typing and took awhile but worked best.

[jaylittle]

Yeah that technique works but if you've resigned yourself to compiling everything on your own anyway... I suggest that you give Gentoo a shot. Their system for managing software is called portage and though it does require you to pretty much compile everything - it is by far the best way to manage package installation/uninstallation under linux. The best part about Gentoo is the extensive user support community you'll find on their web based forums.

http://www.gentoo.org

[Jerry Atrik]

gentoo is d/l'ed but i havent installed that one yet
mandrake 10.1 installed this morning while i was getting dressed for work. detected everything, mounted ntfs and the soundcard works in 3d stereo. (none of the others did out of the box)

[jaylittle]

Heh. Well I'll be the first to warn you: Gentoo will not automatically detect anything. It will however make your life extremely easy when it comes to keeping your box up to date.

Honestly it sounds like for your needs that something like Ubuntu would work best. It uses the APT package system which is far superior to the RPM system in Fedora/Mandrake and its geared more towards an end user.

http://www.ubuntulinux.org/

[Jerry Atrik]

im definitely an end user to cad and things of that nature but i enjoy playing with this stuff. i got an extra hd at home just to do all these installs on without disturbing my windows stuff. it's fun to learn. in couple weeks im going to choose one, partition this hd at work and run pro/e on a linux system (like the old sgi boxes we used to have)

i really only need a few components mostly video, but i need the newest software so im gonna see if i can get used to gentoo and build a just CAD station. but for home im going to look for something the neighbors kid can use for internet, music blah blah. so far i think ill put mandrake on. i already have thousands of questions lol.