[ReFoRMaT]

As you well know, from time to time I post my experiences with different distro installs and testing. I tried Redhat 9.0 a long time ago and had nvidia and rpm problems. I just tried Fedora Core 3 the other day and nothing has changed. No, wait, I actually made it to the desktop this time without swapping video cards. Of course that was after the first install attempt froze because of samba, I had to start the install again and uncheck anything samba and voila, installation continued. Gnome sucks (except speed wise, I found it faster than KDE), plain and simple, too simple actually. Where is all the settings? Where is the windohs partition? I could 'see' windohs from Suse. I don't dare try a different desktop not 'native' to the distro. I have enough problems with the default desktop. So I am sittin' at the desktop thinkin' the picture is off center because the nvidia driver is not installed, down that dark, bumpy road I go. Fedora offers NO NVIDIA DRIVER, why? Suse makes you click yes to the user agreement, why can't Fedora do the same (I hate to say this but Billy G. is right about distros not taking heat for copyright infringement, blah blah blah)?. Fedora, legally, is a 'ghost' so they can't do the same as Suse, but wait a minute, I saw nvidia drivers in the Debian apt archives and Debian is a 'ghost' too. Did I mention Fedora sucks? Red Hat/Fedora is way over rated. So I go get the latest nvidia driver, and of course there is some, uh, lots of dependancy problems and manual file configuration JUST LIKE OLD WINDOHS! After screwing around for an hour, I can't get to the desktop anymore, JUST LIKE MY FIRST 'RED HAT' EXPERIENCE. So I deleted the partition to make room for Debian. I hear Debian has excellent package management, not to mention lots of 'em (packages). What newbies really need is a 'Suse like' distro with a GUI apt-get. RPM REALLY STANDS FOR RETARDED PACKAGE MANAGEMENT! Good thing I switched to cdrw's for iso burning, I got tired of throwing money in the garbage! Debian is 9 disks, thats right, you are not going blind, 9 disks. I will be trying Debian 3.0 r3 and installing lots of the 'newer' unstable stuff. By the way people, DON'T WAST YOUR TIME WITH THE DEBIAN 'NET INSTALL' CD IF YOU HAVE A DSL/PPPoe CONNECTION. PPPoe is not supported, it wanted me to use my modem (which I use for faxing only) or a 'cable' connection. Can you imagine installing a couple of GBs of Linux from the internet with a 56k modem? MY LORD, get real!

P.S. I am not sure it I posted my Mandrake 10.0 experience. It was a little better than Fedora but it is still based on the Red Hat/rpm model which I am starting to despise. I didn't like the corporate money grab attempts from the website. It wasn't that great that I would pay for support or anything else from them. Overall, I thought Mandrake 10.0 was ugly and confusing. I don't know why it is so popular. So far Suse is winning my 'desktop' but I find it lacking in cutting edge software and mutimedia. Stay tuned...

[Dapper Dan]

Originally posted by ReFoRMaT:

Quote:

What newbies really need is a 'Suse like' distro with a GUI apt-get.

They just did, it's called ProMepis!

You can also use apt-get with SuSE. I use it all the time. Fedora Core three also offers XFCE DE which is very fast and good on resources. I used Apt-get RPM from RH 8 all the way through FC2, and it always worked as well as Apt-get Debian for me. I'm sure they have the FC3 apt repositories up by now. Maybe the Nvidia modules are in some of those repositories.

[egorgry]

ProMepis is very nice. Have you tried ubuntu? That's another great easy to install, easy to use debian based distro.

[ReFoRMaT]

Boy, you guys reply fast.

1. ProMepis costs money, I would prefer to try before I buy, even if I did have the money.

2. My machine is not THAT slow! It is a PIII/733, 80GB Seagate @ ata66, 512/133 SDram, nVidia GeForce FX 5200/128MB, fast PPPoe dsl, etc...

3. I will be building a very fast/new machine as soon as my money situation improves (see 2.)

4. Do other Debian/apt based distros use the same or have their own repositories?

5. Last but not least, I decided to go with the lastest Debian 'sarge' release WHICH IS 15 ISO'S, instead of 3.0 r3. I vont cutting edge, if something acts up I will fix or remove it! Probably the latter since I am not THAT good yet.

P.S. I will give Ubuntu (gotta love that funny name) a 'whirl' if I don't like Debian. Thankyou both for your suggestions and comments.

[clutch]

I don't care for any RPM-based distros, although SuSE is tolerable. I tried Fedora for about 15 minutes, and was reminded of all my other Red Hat experiences and canned it (although it was better).

@1 - I liked Stormix (Rest In Peace), Xandros, and Libranet, all of which are pay-for Debian-based distros. The cool thing about these distros is that you get proprietary tools (installers, control panel apps, etc) and support (if needed) from the respective companies.

@2 - Yes, it's slow ;-). It should work fine, but remember that all of those bells and whistles in the new interface take up CPU cycles. I prefer to use Fluxbox on all of GUI machines for this reason.

@3 - Cool.

@4 - The best thing about Debian is that you can shift from feed to feed (the place you get your packages from) or combine them (such as your normal Debian feed from your vendor, plus a feed for custom KDE packages). Debian is my second fav distro, closely behind Gentoo. As for 15 ISOs, that doesn't make any sense. You should just need disk 1, partition and format your disk, and then install packages from the CD and your feed (assuming you get online during installation).

@5 - Ubuntu is cool, and I believe the installer is fairly intuitive (it's all a blur since I have installed Linux about two dozen times in the last few weeks). I installed it from an ISO, but I just got my free CDs from them last week and haven't setup a new VM for it.

[ReFoRMaT]

Dear Mr. clutch (I will assume you are male)

Re:1. Very low on money right now (*sigh*).

Re:2. I wish you guys would get off the 'slow' thing. The only reason I mentioned anything is the obvious resource hunger of KDE compared to Gnome. Somebody should trim the fat from KDE before it explodes! Don't get me wrong, I actually prefer KDE. My computer works just fine. You would not believe what I do on this thing (archive, decode/encrypt very large files etc.). I had an AMD 'thunderbird' core 1733MHz/1GB 233 ddr pile of junk I built from new parts. I do the same tasks, if not more on this PIII/733. The AMD would lag and kahk alot under pressure. I was anti-Intel for awhile but after realizing anything that runs as hot as an AMD chip will have a shorter life span and be prone to making errors. I don't think this computer has gave me a single problem. It is an IBM 6565rbu. Built like a brick outhouse. I like IBM's, never had any trouble with them. This is my second IBM (Bimmer II). I use and abuse it and it never complains. Of course some extra custom cooling always helps.

Re:4. The fact that Debian is so package 'flexible' is very appealing. Thankyou for that information. Re: "As for 15 ISOs, that doesn't make any sense." Check this out:
http://ftp.acc.umu.se/pub/cd-images/debian-weekly/torrents/i386/
I think I will stick to a trouble free disk install for now, thankyou very much. I tried the online install which did not give a pppoe setup option. The setup assumes everbody is on cable with a fixed IP or you want to spend a week using a dialup modem.

P.S. I don't care how bad some people say the Debian installer is, once I am up and running, I will be enjoying thousands of packages on what I hear is a stable Linux with much less 'dependancy' headaches!

What is the 'native/default' desktop for Debian? Why do you prefer Gentoo? Do I ask too many questions?

[Jmax3]

To ReFoRMAT

ProMepis 2005 beta 3 is out .

Free , and its a live CD,and very easy to install to drive.
(and it is very good in my opinion)


You can get it here: http://distrowatch.com/?newsid=02194#0

Hope this helps.

[egorgry]

Once you get a pure debian system installed you won't regret it. Plus you will never need to install again. Ther is a special kernel that allows you to install using ppoe I'm off to find it. I believe someone built an iso around it with the 2.6 kernel an reiserfs. Try google for netboot iso debian or something.

[ReFoRMaT]

I appreciate the info egorgy but I am 'torrenting' the last 10 disks right now. I want to be able to give the installer whatever it wants when it asks for it. If I really like it, I will make some copies for friends.

[iamroot]

Debian is nice but what puts alot of potential users off are the outdated software and non-graphical installer.. I know that is contributes to stability but many people still like cutting-edge stuff.

[egorgry]

Not 100% sure but I think this image is what you need. It has a fully operational sarge install. Once this is set up you should be able to configure the network. Notice it's about twice the size of a netinstall.
http://people.debian.org/~vorlon/d-i/xfs/

[egorgry]

Originally posted by iamroot:

Quote:

Debian is nice but what puts alot of potential users off are the outdated software and non-graphical installer.. I know that is contributes to stability but many people still like cutting-edge stuff.

use sid. it's as current as it gets... well maybe not as current as gentoo.

[Dapper Dan]

Ditto what Jmax3 said. We're running ProMepis Beta 3 on my wife's Toshiba Satellite laptop and it doesn't cost a thing. It impresses me almost as much as SuSE Pro does! When you have Mepis, you have Debian.

[ReFoRMaT]

I will definitely be trying ProMepis Beta 3. Sounds good. I may not have any money right now but in the near future I will start donating to certain freewares that I like and pay for a full version distro if it is good enough. I am sure there is a lot of other people out there like me who are fed up with Micro$py/monopoly/gouge Corp.
Win2k sp2 is the last Micro$lop product I will ever use. Good riddance to bad rubbish! I have already switched from hotmail to http://www.linuxmail.org/scripts/common/index.main?signin=1〈=us

P.S. This is the whole point of my distro trials. Find a nice comfortable 'shoe' that fits!

[clutch]

Well, you *did* bring up that your computer might be slow...

In any case, Debian is fantastic as a personal server for me, or for getting new people into Linux. It's easy to update and upgrade, and you can select what feeds you run on in exchange for "stability" (old stuff for stability, cutting edge stuff with less stability, and many levels in between).

I prefer Gentoo for all things Linux because:

1. The default installation installs almost nothing; it just boots and that's about it. I like this because I can choose to *add* packages to my install, rather than digging around the installer's package manager to add/remove things from its canned install options (web server, file/print server, desktop, etc.).

2. When I have need for certain things I can compile all new applications with the corresponding use flags, such as support for smb, alsa, ldap, etc. These are things that you might get into later on, but are not that important when starting.

3. It isn't biased to a particular desktop environment. I use Fluxbox, and I don't have to deal with the weight of KDE or Gnome being installed, nor do I have the hassle of removing them during the install process.

4. The community is awesome. I spent a great deal of time on the IRC channel a long time ago, and might return soon. Very cool people (if you have ever hit a BSD channel, then you might appreciate this ;)).

5. I love the name and logo.

With respect to the 15 discs, that *might* include a great deal of their packages for that distro. You should be able to get by with just the first disc and "apt-get install" everything else you need.

Debian, in plain vanilla form, does not favor any desktop environment (this is a good thing), while various Debian-based distros can do what they want. Xandros was KDE-based from what I remember, along with Knoppix. I can't remember what Libranet was, and I thought Stormix was Gnome. I like utilities from both environments, such a Gkrellm and K3B, but I usually don't install both sets of libraries anymore. This is personal preference, and varies from person to person.

[ReFoRMaT]

*Ahhhheeemmmm*...all I said was I found Gnome 'faster' than KDE, aside from you guys having a laugh at the expense of my trusty little 'workhorse' ;), thank you all for your advice and comments.

I thought Micr$py/monopoly/gouge Corp. was funny, 'tough' room, *tap*, *tap*, *tap*, is 'thing' on?(*feedback*)

P.S. I prefer a disk install because you can not verify data integrity during a 'net' install. If something goes wrong, you have no way of 'pinpointing' the problem.

[Philipp]

Just a quick note on Fedora Core 3. FC comes already with two package installation applications that resolves all dependencies similar to apt-get.

1) yum
More info here: http://linux.duke.edu/projects/yum/

2) up2date
This tool was originally for Red Hat Network, but the Fedora Core version support more than just Red Hat Network. Actually, it supports yum repositories, apt repositories, plain rpm directories, and Red Hat Network.

The up2date config file is located at /etc/sysconfig/rhn/sources and look like this:

Code:

### The default RHN (using "default" as the url means use the one in the
### up2date config file).
#up2date default

### An apt style repo (the example is arjan's 2.6 kernel repo).
### The format is:
### type  channel-label      service:server         path        repo name
#apt arjan-2.6-kernel-i386 http://people.redhat.com ~arjanv/2.5/ kernel

### Note: for apt repos, there can be multiple repo names specified (space
### seperated).

### A yum style repo. The format is:
### type  channel-label     url

yum fedora-core-3 http://download.fedo...ore/3/$ARCH/os/
yum updates-released-fc3 http://download.fedo...pdates/3/$ARCH/

### A local directory full of packages (a "dir" repo). For example:
#dir my-favorite-rpms /var/spool/RPMS/

dir FreshRPMs /var/spool/freshrpms/

# Multiple versions of all repos except "up2date" can be used. Dependencies
# can be resolved "cross-repo" if need be.

Example FreshRPMs

To add the FreshRPMs repository to up2date do the following:

1) Import the FreshRPMs GPG key. This is necessary because up2date is checking the GPG signature of each package

Code:

rpm --import http://freshrpms.net...RPM-GPG-KEY.txt

2) Then add the following source to /etc/sysconfig/rhn/sources

Code:

yum FreshRPMs http://ayo.freshrpms...i386/freshrpms/

Now you can run up2date mplayer to install mplayer or up2date frozen-bubble in case you finished Tux Racer and need a new game

On another note, Alex Thimm http://www.atrpms.net has build nVidia RPMs for Fedora Core 3.

To add his repository to up2date:
1) rpm --import http://www.atrpms.net/RPM-GPG-KEY.atrpms
2) Add yum ATrpms http://apt.atrpms.ne...i386/at-stable/ to /etc/sysconfig/rhn/sources

Originally posted by clutch:

Quote:

I liked Stormix (Rest In Peace), Xandros, and Libranet, all of which are pay-for Debian-based distros.

Limited versions of Xandros and Libranet are also available for free download

1) Xandros Desktop OS Version 2 Open Circulation Edition
Info: http://www.xandros.com/products/home/desktopoc/dsk_oc_intro.html
Download: http://ftp.tuwien.ac.at/pub/linux/xandros/xandros-201-ocd-installation.zip

2) Libranet 2.8.1 Flagship Edition is now available for unlimited free trial
http://www.libranet.com/trial_download.html

[ReFoRMaT]

Mr. Phil: Nobody should have to wrestle an OS to the floor and choke it to get A VERY COMMON VIDEO CARD to work. I tried both yum and up2date without much success. I even overwrote the yumconfig file with a 'newer' version I found at www.fedorafaq.org which added alot more servers. Fedora is a poor distro in my opion, because it does not have a policy similar to Debian. Fedora is the Titanic with a thousand bandaids on the hull. I think I will melt my copy of FC3 in the sun with a magnifiying glass just for the hell of it. I appreciate your suggestions of other distros but I want one with some 'meat on it's bones' right out of the box. Most corporate 'trials' reek of shareware (try this table scrap and if you like it, come buy the whole meal mentality).

[ReFoRMaT]

Debian is scary. Managed to get to the kde desktop only to screw up the nvidia driver by apt update. When an installer asks you if you want a 'typical desktop' install, WHY IN THE H*LL WOULD IT NOT INSTALL THE XWINDOW SERVER and then ask, would you like kde, gnome or fries with that...and how about upsize the drink? When people call the installer archaic, THEY WERE NOT KIDDING. I did not write down what 'tty*' port my optical usb mouse is on BECAUSE I DID NOT THINK I WOULD NEED THAT INCONSEQUENTIAL BIT OF INFORMATION LATER ON IN THE INSTALL! Are the Debian crowd elitists that want to keep the 'average' user out of their clique? I am going to give Suse 9.2 a try since I liked Suse 9.1 the best so far. http://www.novell.com/products/linuxprofessional/downloads/ftp/int_mirrors.html
Once again, I was not able to 'see' my windohs 2k partition. Suse is the only distro so far, that I am able to 'see' AND access the 2k partition (this is just a matter of convenience, not having to put a cdrw in the drive to look at the same files that are still on the harddrive until I get rid of the 2k partition completely). ProMepis can wait until they have sorted their kernel problems.

P.S. In this day and age, some people just don't have the time to fool with an 'uber-geek' distro. I just want to get away from windohs for cryin' out loud (*sigh*).

[egorgry]

Originally posted by ReFoRMaT:

Quote:

...Are the Debian crowd elitists that want to keep the 'average' user out of their clique?

Your posts crack me up. You have a way with words... oh and yes we are.

Debian is the distro for geeks, no doubt I love that I have to basicly build a system from scratch and know every detail of hardware/software and evrything in between. Custom kernels , recompiles, and viewing logs is all part of the learning expeirence. If I documented all teh stuff I've had trouble with tehn fixed. I'd be much more helpfull here. Unfortunaly I hack, fix, then forget. suse is a great choice. I've used 9.1 on test box it was good ubuntu is very good, mepis I'm gonna try out soon just for kicks I guess I'll give KDE another shot too even thogh everytime I use it I feel like I'm on a windows box. It's too busy for a gnome user of five years. I like your honesty and it's more of a technicle ex-windows users viewpoint which is refreshing, it shows teh limits of linux on the desktop I think.